Talk:Religion
From Epicurus Wiki
Epicurus liked decidedly better DIY than assisting DII (Lat: Gods). There is no planner in the world. In his small way man has to become his own puppeteer.
Here are Epicurean and Hellenistic current aporias handed down against providence:
-Quid emolumenti queat gratia nostra largiri immortalibus et beatis, ut adgrediantur gerere quidquam causa nostri? For what profit could our thanks bestow on the immortal and blessed beings, that they should essay to do anything for our sakes? [DRN, 5,165].
-Qui numquam gustavit amorem vitae nec fuit in numero, quid obest non esse creatum? But for him who never tasted the love of life, and was never in the ranks of the living, what harm is it never to have been made? [Lucr. V, 180]
- Most people thinks, badly analogizing with sculptors, that matter and other physical principles are inert, in fact create an obstacle to a Deviser... [Philod, PHerc 1670].
- The gods did not create the world, either for themselves or for us. "It is impossible that god should have need of a city and fellow-citizens [...] So for that infinite time, apparently, the god of this people was city less [...] at any rate no answer is consistent with the doctrine of this people when they declare that the world is unique".[Diog Oen. Inscr 20]
- God created only few sages. He should award with visible effect good people and punish the mean ones. [DND 3.15; Diog. Oen. Inscr. 21]
- With religion men lose the cleverness of initiative and courage, as if " nothing depends on man, but everything is controlled by the gods" [PHerc 1251 col. vii].
- God would have divination ability only if everything rejected our deeds. [ Menoec. ; Cic. Divinat.]
- God is not infinite because he coexists with finite things; he is not almighty if daemons and men are free willing.
- God is not almighty: he cannot kill himself if he would want it; he cannot make immortal bodily men; he cannot make them who have lived not have lived; he cannot do that ten plus ten are not twenty. [Plinius, II, 7: «Deus non sibi potest mortem consciscere si velit, quod homini dedit optimum in tantis vitae poenis»]
- There are no miracle, if nature does not exclude the possibility of it. [Cic. Divinat]
- Qualem autem Deum intelligere nos possumus nulla virtute praeditum? Quid enim? Prudentiam deo tribuemus quae constat ex scientia rerum bonarum et malarum ? Cui mali nihil est, nec esse potest, quid huic opus est dilectu bonorum et malorum? Quid autem ratione? Quid intelligentia? Quibus utimur ad eam rem, ad quem utimur, ut apertis obscura assequamur; at obscurum Deo nihil potest esse. Nam fortis deus intellegi qui potest? In dolore? An in labore? An in periculo? Quorum Deum nihil attingit. “What kind of god can we conceive having no virtue? What about? Do we assign him caution that is science of goods and evils? What helps choice to the one who has no evils nor can he have them? About reasonableness and insight? we use them for what is useful, in order to understand unclear things through clear ones; but to the god nothing can be unclear . Who can think a god as courageous? About pains, stresses, dangers? All that doesn't concern him.”[Cicero, 'De nat. Deor. 3, 15]
- God is morally lower than man because he don't practice fortitude and courage [Sen. De Provid.] (this lights up on mystery cults of self-sacrifice).
- About the world, what was after that being perverted by trivial popularity's craving, who wasn't spurred by indigence? [Lucanus, Phars. X 156]
- Before the cosmos was formed by them, gods would have been less fulfilled than they might have been, and this is inconsistent with prolêpsis of gods [Diog. Oin.; Lucr.]
The beliefs of the Jewish Sadducees surprisingly included the denial of divine providence and the assertion of free will, in coincidence with Epicurus [Josephus,32].
